Tynan

Life Outside the Box

John Wes hasn't filled out their bio yet. '95 Rialta-dweller, VFR800-rider, builder of cool things
John Wes
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Investing (and making) money... what are you guys doing?

I'd rather chop off a limb than read financial books right now.  I wouldn't even know how to go about investing in any kind of stocks or bonds and don't really know what other possible avenues I have to choose from other than starting a business or buying property to rent to tenants.  Currently, my money is rotting in a checking account, at the very least, I should put it in some kind of high interest account to defeat inflation.  I've felt overwhelmed lately with personal projects and what to do with my life, and this keeps getting put on the back burner.

I remember Ty's post on Lending Club, how's that going?  Peter Parker, you're with Prosper, right?  I'd be happy with consistent 10% returns, is either of these two sites safe enough to dump a majority of my cash into? 

Background info: I'm 30 years old, live in the Rialta, probably spend under $700/month on normal expenses (super frugal, not glamorous at all), 2-months unemployed by choice and living off what I have saved: a little over $32k, engineering drop-out, don't seem to have many high-paying skills, and don't know what I'll do in the future as far as making income.  I'm not a dumbass, but I'm not a "runner" as Tynan might put it, and I don't know if I can change that... I don't want to work forever.  I love my leisure time.  I guess it's different if the projects you love are making money... maybe that's another discussion.  Along with Tynan's goals, being able to bank a few million and comfortably support a family would be awesome, but I'm not that hopeful; fortunately, I don't seem to mind living very simply and without kids (for now at least...).  My goal might be making $1-2k/month passively.  Some of the entry-level oilfield jobs here pay well, $1900/week for driving a truck a limited amount of hours for example, so I might consider putting up with that for a year or two, but I still need to find out what to do with that money.  Thanks everyone.  Great job with SETT and your whole blog, forum, & book history, Tynan; we're lucky to have you.

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TomsAdventure hasn't filled out their bio yet.
TomsAdventure
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My main source of income is my main website, but I'll share what I'm doing as far as investing:
1.  A few years back, I dropped $500 each into Prosper and LendingClub.  Prosper account value is now at $559.63, with an annualized return of 4.19%.  LC account value is now at $600.03 with a Net Annualized Return of 7.29%.  I just set an auto-invest plan that is fairly conservative and let it sit.  I was actually just thinking about dumping a lot more money into this, however it sorta locks your money away for the duration of the loans.
2.  Stocks - I max out my SEP IRA each year, and then essentially "gamble" with stocks.  I basically buy things I hear a lot about, like silver, gold and other precious metals, but also things I think are going to be the way of the future - apple, google, Whole Foods, Netflix, retirement homes, etc.  Finally, I play with penny stocks from time to time just for fun.  I wouldn't say that I'm an expert at stock investing by any means.
3.  Foreclosure Flipping - I'm an investor in an LLC in California that buys foreclosured homes in a specific market, rehabs them and then sells them on the market.  I don't do any work except keep a spreadsheet of the profits.  We've averaged about 10%+ per year.
4.  Rentals - I own a few 4-plexes in Reno, NV along with a house.  Property is EXTREMELY cheap there, but the rents aren't great.  I have a great Property Manager handling EVERYTHING.  The house is cash-flowing, the the 4-plexes are not because there are still a few vacant units, and we've spent a lot on maintenance.
5.  Websites - I spent a few years acquiring websites, but spent the last year selling them off.  I've tripled my money on each website on average, but it has taken a bit of work to find them, make offers, transfer everything, fix them up and then finally list them at auction after I get some good stats.  Since my main website is taking up all my time, I've given up flipping websites because I don't have the time.I've been sharing my whole strategy with everyone in a series of posts on my blog: TomsAdventure.com   

John Wes hasn't filled out their bio yet. '95 Rialta-dweller, VFR800-rider, builder of cool things
John Wes
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Thanks for sharing Tommy.  How would I find and get started with a foreclosure flipping group?


War in Heaven hasn't filled out their bio yet. Fighting the good fight - to make the body congruent with the soul... Old blog http://3rddimension.wordpress.com New blog http://sett.com/thetinyoctopus/
War in Heaven
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Hey there,

I'm in a similar situation. I've looked into stock markets but I keep hearing the old axiom 'the big guys always win' or some variation. The Facebook IPO is the classic case of stock manipulation where hype and financial entities prop up a price then quickly drop the ball when they've made their comissions. I've thought about the opposite case too - shorting a stock - which is betting a stock that would do bad in the future. If you play Don't Pass in Craps it's a very similar concept. I would've shorted Facebook for sure but to short a stock I hear you need to BORROW an existing shareholder's stock with the promise to pay it back in the future. You win if you have to pay back 19$ later for a 38$ valued stock at the time you borrowed for example. Problem with that I hear is the powers that be closed that loophole too by not lending many stocks out for Facebook. Supposedly the banks and big boys got their first pick of stocks that were being lent for shorting leaving nothing for us.

I think you can win over a stock market like you can win over a casino but it'll take a lot of work, effort, and perseverance which as you say doesn't come naturally to you. It is also ethically conflicting as you are not adding anything of value to the world besides being a price corrector who points out inefficiencies in a market and profits off them. People make money with stocks all the time but unless you're one of the big boys with insider information, connections and a ton of capital to bully the markets/legal system you'll never be far more than the rest of the working class.

Small scale lending I've also looked into. I hadn't researched this thoroughly but from what I read years ago there were stringent requirements to be considered even a small time lender. You needed to prove 100,000$ a year of income, have 125,000$ in working capital for example. These were for the most popular sites - I bet there are smaller ones which will let you do it. I browsed through a lot of the loan request justification too and it just scared me even more. People wanting to buy new cars, renovate their home, buy new furniture, cash advance, etc etc... I did not find one worthy client in my opinion who was going to remotely use that money and leverage it to possibly create more money besides home renovations. Most just wanted to sink it in to buy more entertainment and deprecating assets. I shouldn't really be one to judge what people do with their money but when it is YOUR money and you are trying to judge a person's ability to pay back fully and on time a lot of the spelling/grammatical errors and really dumb justifications sap out all confidence in lending. I'd rather lend to 3rd world entities over Americans as they seem much more driven and serious to use that money to better themselves.

I don't mean for this piece to be a pessimistic evaluation of those two types of moneymaking but just a way to share what I've seen thus far. 2009 was the last time I checked regarding lending - hoping to cash in on the hesitance of banks who were burnt bad (or just say they were while pocketing even more). Maybe I'm wrong on all counts - maybe stock markets are moneymakers and lending clubs have removed all financial requirements to lend. I encourage you to just take my experience lightly and see for yourself if these avenues are indeed viable moneymaking alternatives.

Tynan hasn't filled out their bio yet. Creator of SETT. Adventurer.
Tynan
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You don't actually need to prove any of that for Lending Club, FYI. I've been doing LC for a while now... still think it's by far the best safe / high return investment available.

Peter Park hasn't filled out their bio yet.
Peter Park
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Hmm, I'm in a similar boat having tried my hand at internet marketing and other ventures with little success and would ideally have some side income of ~1k-2k and not have a job then. Still looking at drop shipping and other possibilities. I have one tiny site devoted to an author that makes a very tiny income but a bunch of them could do well.

I don't really consider myself an entrepreneur or hustler but been trying to see if i can develop the muscle 

I've used Prosper for micro p2p loans, but I never put any money in that I wasn't worried about losing. There have been a few defaults, but they were the really high risk, high yield loans. The rest are doing fine. But, I've stopped putting money in there since I don't like the idea of my cash being locked up for 3-5 years and it could always go bust at any moment.

I've purchased some stocks and done well. Usually when I really felt something was undervalued like Google <500 or Amazon when it was below 200. At the same time, I've been screwed every time I purchased a company with incomplete knowledge like a Chinese dating website stock that tanked. It's the really wild swings where an established company (Apple, Exxon, Google, etc) that make no sense where money can be made. But even here, I've been cautious about putting in more than I'm willing to lose.

I've been moving more towards the direction of being a web developer and getting more freelance projects in the future or releasing my own programs but still working on my skills. Also thinking about leaving tech completely and pursuing a field like psychology.

Then there's always things like real estate, poker, and buying/fixing/selling goods. A FHA loan would require 3.5% downpayment, find a seller willing to pay the closing costs, and you could get a home for 10k and rent out the other rooms. Could also learn how to repair bikes and cars and do that as a side business. Especially with vehicles that still have a lien on them, you can often buy them in cash from the bank at a 20-50% discount and then just flip and sell it. Or be the IT guy for local small businesses. All things I've thought about but kinda hard to do while on the road

John Wes hasn't filled out their bio yet. '95 Rialta-dweller, VFR800-rider, builder of cool things
John Wes
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All great ideas, thanks for sharing, Pete.  Glad to see you're giving the Rialta some more love.

Tynan hasn't filled out their bio yet. Creator of SETT. Adventurer.
Tynan
1
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I'm still doing Lending Club, averaging 15%. I think it's an unbelievably good investment... extremely likely high returns and very unlikely small losses. Any event that would trigger a big LC loss would trigger an even bigger loss in any other likely >5% yield investment.

Rich hasn't filled out their bio yet.
Rich
1
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Tynan, do you have certain criteria for selecting which loans to fund in LC?  I know you mentioned you choose the riskier ones.  Do you ask the borrower's any questions or do anything else to weed out possible defaulters?

Tynan hasn't filled out their bio yet. Creator of SETT. Adventurer.
Tynan
1
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I don't ask questions.. I just buy $25 at a time (up to $100 if I have a large to-be-invested balance). I go for only F-G loans, and only if they have a mortgage or rent a house.

War in Heaven hasn't filled out their bio yet. Fighting the good fight - to make the body congruent with the soul... Old blog http://3rddimension.wordpress.com New blog http://sett.com/thetinyoctopus/
War in Heaven
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Hi Tynan,

Thanks for the lending club reference and the no minimum cashflow notice - I'll go check it out. Out of curiosity why is one of your criteria to lend a mortgage/house rental? That seems to be the very antithesis of who you are as a person and what you represent. Is it because these people are the least likely to 'go anywhere' per se? Mortgager's and Renter's are trapped in the system - forced to work jobs they may not necessarily like just to make ends meet. If so by reflection doesn't that make the wild and free ones like you the riskiest people to lend to? Funny how that works out...

Tynan hasn't filled out their bio yet. Creator of SETT. Adventurer.
Tynan
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Actually, I've analyzed the historical data. My guess is mortgage/own is better because those people actually have some tangible asset. 

John Wes hasn't filled out their bio yet. '95 Rialta-dweller, VFR800-rider, builder of cool things
John Wes
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Bump: 
I recently realized that Texas residents are out of luck.  Did you have a way of working around this when you started or were you a Cali resident by then?  Any other tips on how I might be able to get in on LC besides their secondary Folio market?


John Wes hasn't filled out their bio yet. '95 Rialta-dweller, VFR800-rider, builder of cool things
John Wes
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Hey Tynan, your above and below comments seem to contradict: tangible mortgage & own vs rent.  Strangely, renters have better history than owners.  When looking at lendstats, I can't seem to make any combination of filters produce a significant amount of loans that reach anywhere near 15% return.  Here's an example of what I've got so far, can you help explain why the returns shown aren't higher and what you're doing differently?

http://www.lendstats.com/loansearch/lc/lcloanfilter.php?sdm=01&sdy=2011&edm=12&edy=2013&size1=1000&size2=35000&cg2=F1&cg1=G5&fc1=&fc2=&inq1=&inq2=&dti1=&dti2=&oc1=&oc2=&tc1=&tc2=&rc1=&rc2=&rcp1=&rcp2=&cl1=&cl2=&dq21=&dq22=&msdq1=&msdq2=&pr1=&pr2=&ch1=&ch2=&inc1=4000&inc2=&el1=3&el2=&lp2=1&lp3=1&lp5=1&lp6=1&lp7=1&lp8=1&lp11=1&lp13=1&lp0=1&ho1=1&ho2=1&trm0=1&trm1=1&states1=exclude&states[]=CA&ex1=1&df5=0.5&df1=0.25&df2=0.5&df3=0.75&df4=0.99&xx=&lender=all&sho1=2&sho2=0

John Wes hasn't filled out their bio yet. '95 Rialta-dweller, VFR800-rider, builder of cool things
John Wes
0
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I recently realized that Texas residents are out of luck.  Did you have a way of working around this when you started or were you a Cali resident by then?  Any other tips? 


JohnCaptain hasn't filled out their bio yet. Local NYC bodybuilding legend and writer of "Work out, lose weight, and stop being single"
JohnCaptain
1
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Hey Jwes, I need to try the lending club.  I have 100K in a CD getting 2.9%, since I have no faith in the market right now.  Do you have a blog? I have been telling everyone to sign up for amazon associates.  Mine is at http://thecaptainpower.blogspot.com  I've been looking at real estate also with the 3.5% fha, but where I live in Brooklyn we are looking at $750K+ for anything.  If you have any good idea's let me know, I also make an easy $500-$1000 a year just rotating checking accounts and credit cards....

John Wes hasn't filled out their bio yet. '95 Rialta-dweller, VFR800-rider, builder of cool things
John Wes
0
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Thanks Captain.  I'm not a blogger, but great ideas.  My latest scheme is to talk Dad into letting build a small RV lot (like 1-2 dozen spaces) on a field I will inherit, but need to do more research.  Seems kind of low maintenance and could give quick profit; oil workers in that area would fill it fast.

Peter Park hasn't filled out their bio yet.
Peter Park
1
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There's a book I have somewhere devoted to RV lots actually, I'll see if i can find it

John Wes hasn't filled out their bio yet. '95 Rialta-dweller, VFR800-rider, builder of cool things
John Wes
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Wow, thanks man.  Let me know if it turns up.  Just ran it by Dad earlier today and he's open to the idea, but we need to learn and talk more about it.

JohnCaptain hasn't filled out their bio yet. Local NYC bodybuilding legend and writer of "Work out, lose weight, and stop being single"
JohnCaptain
1
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hmmm, very interested in lending club and prosper.  Prospers homepage says its offering $100 for referrals, anyone want to refer me? thecaptainpower.gmail.com  If either offers a decent promotion I might jump in.  I heard there are several ways to get a free cash advance from some of the no-fee credit cards.  If I can get 10K out of a card for 15 months and drop it on P2P lending for 5-15% thats a pretty good hustle.  Only problem major risk I see is that Im not very upbeat on the market, so if the market tanks again might see a lot of defaults. BUT, sure beats having your house go down $100k in value.

John Wes hasn't filled out their bio yet. '95 Rialta-dweller, VFR800-rider, builder of cool things
John Wes
0
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You're a boss on finding those little extra bonuses, but this one looks like it only gives you $100 if your friend takes out a loan through the site. 

Misol.com hasn't filled out their bio yet. Professional deep end jumper. Check out my SETT blog at http://misol.com
Misol.com
1
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Safe & Simple: 50% Cash, 50% What's Real™ (Gold, Silver, Undervalued Land, FAMILY, etc)

If you're young, you should go with your gut and not worry about money. It will come and go with rich & unique experiences. When you get closer to 30, then you should bring more Safe & Simple into your life while constructing your masterpiece. 

When you hit 40, fire yourself. Open yourself to meeting young souls and help them build their masterpiece.

Tynan hasn't filled out their bio yet. Creator of SETT. Adventurer.
Tynan
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It's very concerning to me that our opinions are getting closer together.

Misol.com hasn't filled out their bio yet. Professional deep end jumper. Check out my SETT blog at http://misol.com
Misol.com
0
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we're getting old...

Lawrencehe hasn't filled out their bio yet. Student, Apprentice, Polymath in training
Lawrencehe
1
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Warren Buffet once said to only invest in things you understand.  Honestly, stock trading is so complicated that not even top analysts fully understand it.  I would say the best way to invest is to find something you understand well and put money and effort into it

Lisa hasn't filled out their bio yet. In the process of finding a Class B RV and taking off on a boondocking adventure while I work remotely. Tynan and a few others have been a great inspiration.
Lisa
1
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JWes, I don't think
you can make proper financial investment decisions without understanding, at least somewhat, what you are doing. You could just
hand your investment money to a financial planner but caveat emptor! You might try following a site I found that is run by someone who knew nothing about investing, lost most everything in the dotcom bubble and decided to learn. Her site is entertaining and chock full of investment strategy.   http://www.kungfufinance.com/  

That being said, here's some of what I do:

  1) I've been invested in Lending Club for about a year. I do loans in $25 increments and don't take the basket of loans Lending Club suggests. Instead, I go through the somewhat laborious  process of choosing loans. I mix it up, but weighted on the Bs & Cs. My criteria is no or very little
negative credit history, a steady job history that pays well compared to what the borrowers owes and is asking from Lending Club and most important (to my mind), I only choose the borrowers who have taken the time to answer the Lending Club questions. I figure if they can't even bother to answer those few simple questions then they are not all that responsible. Also, I don't lend money to people looking for big bucks just so they can have a bang-up wedding or remodel their house. I mostly choose those who are honestly trying to get out of debt by consolidating their high interest rate credit card debt.  So far, not a single default and a return of around 11-12%. However, I would not put more that 10% of my investment basket in Lending Club as if the economy makes a sharp turn south, there will be the risk of many job losses and that will necessarily include a certain percentage of Lending Club borrowers.

2) Gold mining stocks. I am a firm believer that gold mining stocks are undervalued and offer a big upside. But you need to do a little homework on this one. Find companies with a history of good management and if you go for the big cap stocks  paying a dividend, it is a safer bet than the "juniors," but, of course, not as much upside potential. 

3) The stock market is tricky. You must realize that over 80% of the trading these days is done by computers in milli-seconds, i.e. the focus is very short-term. I figure it is fairly safe to go with big cap, dividend paying stocks. Also energy stocks have been a pretty good bet. Here's a good strategy: pick your stocks based on some research (it does take a little work) and set up alerts. If your stock goes up 20%, sell it, no matter what you think it's going to do, i.e., don't be greedy. On the other hand, if it is going down, set a point, say 20% down where you will also sell and take your losses. And, btw,if we experience another crash like 2009, consider buying when everyone is selling. 

4) You must be an accredited investor (which you are not) to make private placement loans but if you have a trusted friend or family member who  needs to borrow money for a worthy endeavor, you might consider that. I loaned a considerable amount to a land partnership (of which I am also a partner) at 8%. Best investment I've made!

5) Finally, I really believe everyone should own at least 10% of their wealth in physical gold and silver. This is more like an insurance policy than an investment. If you understand what the Central Banks are doing, you will understand that fiat (paper) money is being destroyed. However, in order to understand this, it takes some mind-work and if your eyes glaze over after a paragraph of financial print, then I suppose you either have to take this advice or leave it. (and if you leave it, just hope that I am wrong.)

6) For what it is worth - I would avoid U.S. Treasuries like the plague. 

Whatever you do, realize that inflation is eating away at your money "under the mattress" or even in a savings account or CD, etc. You are still young, you can lose a little and it won't really be a big deal. There are good investment opportunities out there but if you aren't going to
put a little work into it, it is like driving your Rialta blindfolded.

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